Chicago at the Crossroads: Lessons for Leaders on School Integration and Advancing Public Education Equity

Ruthie Payno-Simmons: 

Hello, and welcome to Integration Now, where we explore how history continues to shape today's integration challenges...and what we can do to advance more equitable outcomes for our students. I am Dr. Ruthie Payno-Simmons, Project Director for the Center for Education Equity, Region III at MAEC. We work alongside schools, districts, and state agencies to face the legacy of segregation head-on and turn the promise of integrated public schools into a reality students experience every day.  

In today’s episode, we focus on Chicago, a city with a long history of segregation, school choice policies, and privatization. How do these patterns continue to influence opportunities for integration today? And what lessons can education leaders draw from this history? 

Integration Now is hosted by my colleague Dr. Kathleen King Thorius, a leading scholar whose work focuses on dismantling systemic barriers and advancing culturally responsive practices for historically underserved students. She is a professor and has led major equity-focused initiatives, including founding the Great Lakes Equity Center. In this episode, she speaks with Dr. Federico Waitoller, a leading scholar on inclusive education at the University of Illinois Chicago, as we connect historical insight to practical strategies. 

Let’s get started. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

Hi, Federico, it's so great to be with you today. It's been a while. 

 

Federico Waitoller: 

Yeah, it's great to be here, yeah. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

For those of us joining today, I'm really glad to be with my friend and colleague, Federico Waitoller. We'll talk more about your work in a minute, Federico, but I also want to thank you for all the work you did over, gosh, probably 11 years, with the Region II Equity Assistance Center when we were at Indiana University in Indianapolis. You served as an Equity Fellow for the region, and you advised us and created products and resources for our 13 states, for the states that are served by the Center for Education Equity at the Mid-Atlantic Equity Consortium now, and we're really glad to be in partnership with them. So I'm glad we can bridge this conversation into the work that's continuing with our good colleagues. Well, thanks for joining us today. 

 

Federico Waitoller: 

Yeah, thank you very much. I mean, it's great to be back with you and developing products for the Center. What an amazing eight years, you know, with the Center, and the amount of products you produced with the Center was just extraordinary, a wealth of resources for people, and I hope we can keep using it and then accessing them. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Yeah. Well, I know we will, and thanks for your commitment to this work. I know you're working across a number of different spaces, including your own podcast that you lead –  

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Yeah. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

– with the Division for Research with the Council for Exceptional Children. Great.  

So let's dive in. We're here to talk about Chicago, but we can certainly broaden the conversation beyond Chicago, but one of the reasons I invited you… one of the reasons I invited you to join us is because you've worked specifically in Chicago with families and educators looking at patterns of segregation as they relate to school choice and relate to student identity. And specifically, you look at the intersections of race and disability, but certainly you pay attention to a lot of lived experiences of families and youth. 

And I've seen some of your past work, I mean, you're getting right in there looking at transcripts from meetings, and you're talking specifically with families about their decisions to choose other schooling options, educational options for their children. So I thought it'd be great to kick off the series with you from your on-the-ground work with educators and families and students in Chicago. So thanks for joining us. 

We certainly know Chicago schools have a long history of segregation. I mean, most of our schools do, right? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Mm-hmm. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

And certainly a history of school choice policies and privatization. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Mm-hmm. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

So, I would like to talk with you about how these patterns are shaping opportunities for integration today. Let’s start with the historical foundations of race-based segregation in Chicago. So we know that Chicago Public Schools operated under a desegregation consent decree for almost 30 years. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Mm-hmm. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

And you've done a lot of work on the ground. What are the major lessons from that period about how race-based segregation keeps on keeping on? And how can these lessons guide our efforts toward integration and equitable access in our urban schools? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Well, great question. I mean, we can probably have, need to have a panel with four people and three hours of discussion to answer that. But, uh, you know, let's say that, yeah, 30 years, but let's also say that the decree consent ended in 2009. I mean, people think about segregation as part of the history, but I bet most of the people listening to the podcast were alive in 2009. That question doesn't go very well when I ask my students who were alive in 2009, my young students, I'm surprised many of them haven't yet, but for many of the people who listen to this, who are...it's very recent history. 

Let's say that the consent decree… I mean, the effort for desegregation in Chicago. We're, we'll say, we use the word “soft” in the sense that we're putting a lot of emphasis on people's choices, people who... For example, with busing, if people wanted to bus to another school, or the other big effort on desegregation were magnet schools and selective enrollments, uh, that happened, uh, back in the 1960s, right? We think about school choice as a recent thing from the 1990s, but really, uh, if we think about magnet schools and, um, selective enrollment schools as types of school choice, there's a much longer history than that in the 1960s. 

What are the major lessons we can learn without it? I don't think we, you can leave entirely to families to choose if they want to desegregate or not. There needs to be a much forceful policy on that that incentivates and supports schools, that makes them enticing for families to also to enroll in different areas of the city. 

The consent decree had some results, but then, overall, we see, like, the same patterns restarting or even worsen in the last decades, for many different reasons. There's been a historical White flight in Chicago of White families, not just moving to the suburbs, but also moving to private schools within the Chicago area, because a lot of families also do that. But also there's been a lot of migration of Black families out of Chicago to the southern and west suburbs that have, for once, decreased enrollment of Chicago Public Schools. I remember when I arrived to Chicago, it was 2010 I think, and there was around 500,000 students in CPS, a little over that. And now that it's just over a little 300,000, to give you an idea.  

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Wow. 

 

Federico Waitoller: 

So, there's been a significant move out of the city, particularly a lot of for Black families and White families. What have we learned? We need more conscious and forceful policies that support all schools, so, that doesn't demonize some of the schools and deem them as unsuccessful, as unsafe. And we need policies that support... I mean, let’s say this too, right, it's not about also only educational policy, it's also about housing policy, it's about transportation policies. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

Mm-hmm. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Because one of the factors of school segregation is also housing segregation that continues to be a big issue in Chicago. I mean, it's fascinating to see the maps of the big migration and see where Black communities migrated and where areas of segregation are happening now. And also, when we see the school closings of, uh, 2013, I don't know if people remember, but Chicago Public Schools closed almost 50 schools... 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Yep. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

...elementary schools. If you see where those schools closings are, are in very similar areas, and you see also a very similar pattern with the opening of charter schools, but I think we get to that later. So I think you need much more forceful and political will, right?  

And then, I mean, the other part of this, because I'm talking a lot more from a top-down approach, it's also changing people's minds, because I think even if you put the most diligent policy, the most efficient, smart policy to desegregate, if people don't want to desegregate, or families don't want to desegregate, they will find their ways to not do it as well. That would be very difficult, but I think they will still do. You know, people change their address or rent another house, sometimes when they have the means in other parts of the city to be able to change, to move the kids there, so families who have the means can use many different ways and strategies to get into the schools they want. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because you're kind of going way back to the origins of school choice as a strategy that White families were using in the South and Virginia to avoid the order to integrate. So, when we look back at the origins of school choice, not that we're trying to demonize school choice either, but it's important to understand our history of when school choice emerged as an approach to public schooling. We're seeing the origins, you know, back post-Brown, to 1956.  

So you talked about a number of things. You talked about, you know, families leaving, and what are policies that could exist that support them to stay? You’re talking about other policies that exist. So we know housing policy and residential segregation is probably the biggest impact on school segregation today that we're dealing with. And you also talked about, really more on the side... I think you said sort of softer policy around what families and students and the public more broadly believes to be true about schools, because, certainly families and students have their own experiences, but there are these larger narratives right now about what's happening at public schools that, from my perspective, often misrepresent the good and hard work that educators are doing.  

So, you know, I'd love to talk about that a little bit more, like, in order. So, how can we support families to stay? Like, what are some of the top reasons in your own research that families are saying, “We're leaving to go to another environment?” Because why? And how does that connect, if at all, to segregation or integration patterns in Chicago public schools? 

 

Federico Waitoller: 

Yeah. Families…families want to send their children into a safe place that they can learn, that they feel that have a positive climate... I mean, I did a little work with students with disabilities, you know, they want services that cater to the needs of their students with disabilities. They want an inclusive climate.  

And in general, particularly with working-class families, they want something close to their home, because transportation, it can be an issue for many of these families, particularly if you're traveling to another part of the city to work, and then you need to go and pick up your child. So transportation, I think it’s, distance, it's also an important factor. For some families it’s not, but for a lot of working class families, distance tends to be an important factor. 

We need to create, nurture, and support, you know, safe schools. And when I mean safe, I don't mean let's put metal detectors on the door so nobody enters, but actually creating positive climates and school-wide supports and training for teachers and principals so students can enter a welcoming environment, right? And for schools to have a welcoming environment, they need to also be supportive and nurturing of the students' identities and language that they come with, as they enter the room, and they enter the classrooms.  

So I think if – what I've found, I mean, overall, if you provide provides safe schools and safe neighborhoods, where families feel okay with their kids traveling back and forth from school, that the schools are welcoming, and they provide some good education. I don't think families will find the need to, families won't find the need to have to move to different areas of the city. 

But then you get the problem of housing segregation, right? Because even if families send kids to their own school, the schools in their neighborhoods, but racial segregation is still a problem, you're still gonna have similar issues. But we know, we know by the way, that even if kids go to the same school, to the neighborhood school, there will be less segregation in schools than if they get to opt out of that, right? Our schools are sometimes more segregated than actual or residential segregation. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

Mhm, yeah. Yeah, because as, when we’re adding opting out of your neighborhood school, that we're seeing segregation patterns even increase more so, absolutely, residential segregation that already exists. Were there specific strategies or lessons from the period of time when Chicago Public Schools was under the consent decree that were particularly effective, do you think? Any lessons? You talked a bit about, like, transportation, talked about magnet schools. You know, these are some of the strategies. There might be student assignment policies. Were there any that you have found in your own research have been effective? Or even voluntary desegregation approaches that any urban schools, Chicago or otherwise, have utilized with some success, to your knowledge? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

I know some success in terms of desegregation, but, we've seen a lot of efforts of communities to, you know, revitalize and fight for other schools to not lose them, to enrich them. I mean, Chicago is a city of both, you know: of structural inequalities, and at the same time resistance from communities and families and teachers too. So there’s been – through the years, a lot of pushback from teachers' unions, families, organizations, parental organizations, and neighborhood organizations to fight for the resources and having equitable learning opportunities in the schools they have in their neighborhoods.  

There was one case, if I'm not mistaken, which was the Disney Magnet was one of the first magnets that was sort of successful on bringing a mix of students from different racial backgrounds. But my understanding, in the example, there was very limited...I'm missing the word in English, sorry...very limited seats and the waiting list for that school was enormous. Families had a hard time trying to get in, and that model was not replicated, and actually, since 2009, I think, when the consent decree ended, actually, race as a category was deleted as one of the parameters to mitigate the enrollments of schools. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, I appreciate you raising the point about the assets of families and community in Chicago, absolutely. There have been massive examples. One that comes to mind, and, if you can speak more on this, I'd love to hear: I don't know if I'll get this title right, but there are site councils, right, in each Chicago Public School, where there are parent or family representatives as part of the governance structure within Chicago Public Schools. I was at a meeting sponsored by the Spencer Foundation a handful of years ago now to address racial desegregation in schools and I recall a parent saying that within city schools, there was a requirement for there to be essentially elected family representative within each school site counselor, are you aware of that? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

No, I'm… could be. I'm not aware. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

But the point's important. I mean, Chicago has numerous examples, like, back in 2015 when there were schools on the chopping block, of families really across racial and ethnic groups, too, coming together to, quote, save schools. So we've seen a lot of solidarity and as you said, resistance, and also, activism to build the school as the center of the community. Yeah. So I think that's a really an important strategy to think about how we can formalize that. And acknowledge that work and its importance in contributing to the quality of the schools you're talking about, where all students are experiencing a safe place in the way you've defined safety. 

So, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about your research as it relates to this area, and what you've found. What, uh, are families experiencing when they make other choices? When they make the choice to leave their neighborhood school, what are they looking for? And what are they finding? As it relates to school safety, access to, you know, high-quality education. Is school choice working for them? I guess would be a pretty simple way to put the question. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Well, I think it depends on the family. There's… it's...school choices, working for some families, absolutely. And for others, not so much. I mean, the core of my research has centered students with disabilities. And in general, unfortunately, students with disabilities have, a lot of them have poor experiences, period, wherever they go. So they are leaving the school, because they have probably poor experiences on that school, but then they go another one to where they're not very served very well. I mean, it was sad. I talk to a lot of families, it was…a lot of the stories I was listening to, some of them, they move so many times that it gets to a point that you just, you know, it's just… You just stay in the place just because you just moved too many time, not because you're so well. So we may think that a family sometimes staying in a school is a signal that it's having good experiences, and maybe sometimes the reason is like, they're tired of just moving the child to one school to another one. What I hear most is, like, parents, particular parents of students with disabilities, they want to make sure that the kids' individual needs are served and met, that they are in a welcoming space, and sometimes, for them, that's, you know, it's controversial, but something for them, that safe space is the self-contained classroom. Sometimes for them, the safe space for high school students is in a vocational school. Uh, because they felt that the experiences that they have in prior schools were not serving to the children's need. I think beyond the general ones, services, supports, stability, and safe and inclusive environment. And parents are very savvy, and I have talked with families, with mothers and fathers from many different socioeconomic status, and all of them, they…they move. You know, it's not that they, they don't do the work, right? They do the consumer work, right? They, they research, and they look at discourse, and they talk to people, and they do a lot of work with very, sometimes very little results, unfortunately. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Will you say a little bit more about how race and sometimes national origin and/or language may intersect with families' experiences with segregation or integration in schools, whether they're in traditional public schools or they're in a charter school or even a private school? Have you found any sort of patterns, or emphases of particular experiences related to certain intersections of identity? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Yeah, I mean…one… some of the participants that I have talked to, you know, there were Latinx families that they were looking for bilingual schools, you know, there were mothers of students with disabilities who are looking for bilingual schools, on top of the special education services to meet their children's needs. And it really depends where you live in the city. You have more or less access to bilingual schools. So, there were, I remember there were Latinx families who live, for example, in Pilsen, who is a traditional Mexican neighborhood in Chicago, who have several bilingual schools, and the neighborhood has a long history of organizing, and fighting for those bilingual schools. And those mothers have access to bilingual services. But there were other Latinx families living in other areas of the city who did not have that history of Latinx settlement. They had to, if they wanted bilingual school, they had to move their children to some magnet school farther away from the city. So, I think the history of the neighborhoods, you know, plays a big role on the kind of accessibility you have to meet those kind of intersecting considerations that some parents may have of not just needing special education services, but in a bilingual school, because the mother barely spoke English. So, for example, they want to be able to speak to the teachers in Spanish, or they want their kid, their children to learn Spanish, because that was the family language. So, when you get to those intersecting considerations of factors at the time to choose schools, then your school choices can get, start getting very narrow. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

But to that point, you know, I'm hearing you talk about curricula and programming that could exist in traditional public schools, right? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Mm-hmm. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius: 

And I, it makes me wonder, and I know we can't put a percentage on this, but to what extent are families leaving traditional public schools and unintentionally we're seeing increased patterns of segregation. Because traditional public schools are not providing the curricular programming that families are looking for. Like, I would be curious: how many families are leaving because the language programming isn't meeting their children's needs, or the special education services aren't meeting their children's needs? And on the flip side, are they finding what they're looking for in the schools that they're then choosing?  

But I also wonder if it would be useful for school leaders, district leaders, and state leaders to actually see, we're losing this many students because we're not providing, or families are saying we're not providing, these kinds of programs. We're also losing pupil expenditure, right, or per pupil funding from the state. And we're seeing this drastic decline, over 200,000 students, or around 200,000 students, like you said, since you arrived in Chicago. So, almost that, like cost-benefit analysis that educators who are investing in or working with state legislators around public schooling to... What do we need to invest in? So, I guess I'd maybe wrap up this part to say: what do you think our schools, whether it's traditional public schools or charter schools, need to invest in to make sure that all students are accessing curricula that acknowledges their needs and families, what families are looking for in public school options that are available? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Yeah, I mean, definitely, supports in the source of funding, but also human resources, right? And training and professional development on how to nurture and create inclusive schools that have a wide range of services for students that serves the students and their community. But let me say that the schools that I mentioned in Pilsen, those were public schools, right? Those were public schools, but why? Because they are in a neighborhood that for decades has, you know, has fight for, and organized to get bilingual schools in their area. So, it can be done. I mean, though the schools may have other issues, but they provide, you know, bilingual services to, to the Latinx community around them. 

But I think, going back to your question, uh, I think human resources in the sense of teachers in the building that can do the work, that can teach bilingual students, in that case, they can teach special education students. I mean, many, many schools have a huge shortage of special ed teachers, and I don't even tell you if you get to see if you need a bilingual special ed teacher. It's like the unicorn! And, you know, that goes back also to universities, and where we also need to do a little bit of soul-searching and see how we're producing the kind of teachers that needs to be, that can serve students who have intersecting needs or intersecting different kinds of curricula to serve their needs. And leadership: we know leadership is key in schools. The kind of leadership that can create professional communities, learning communities, that they can analyze their school, and involve parents and families in looking at issues in schools and how to solve them. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

So I'll ask one more question that kind of pushes that point a little further. As you know, the work of the Equity Assistance Centers, which have been around since 1972, the work of the Equity Assistance Centers is to support school districts and state education agencies, essentially with integration, with making sure that all students, regardless of race, sex, national origin, or religion, have access to equitable education opportunities. That includes curriculum, that includes free and appropriate public education through special education. It includes their rights under Title IX, and some of our other titles and federal laws related to civil rights. So we're often advising school districts, they're coming to an Equity Assistance Center and saying, “Hey, this is going on. We have a group of students who maybe are not accessing educational opportunities in the same ways as another group, or we have a group of students whose outcomes in certain areas far disparate from another group, or we're having a group of students whose discipline referral numbers are different from another group of students. We need some partnership. We would like some support with how to address these things.”  

So, you use data: big data sets, and you also look at, like, historical data, you look at family and student data. I'd love to hear, like, what would you recommend to a school district, for how you can use data—policy review data, any forms of data—and school design strategies, to increase our chances of having integrated schools? Like, what do we need to pay attention to? And specifically, like, what would you advise a school district administrator, or even a school administrator, about how we can use data, what data we need to attend to, and how we can reduce segregation to make decisions about how we can reduce segregation and increase integrated schools? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Data's important to have good data but it's also who's involved on looking at the data and making those decisions. So, for example, I mean, who is the one narrating? You know, you can make many different narratives out of a piece of data. According to your own background, the frameworks that you bring, you know, you can...test scores going down, and say, oh, students are, because we're in an area highly impacted by poverty. So, of course, the students are you know, coming without eating breakfast, or having, bringing all the issues from home, and you, you can narrate a whole story around that data. I think we need to be very careful how we do that and to do more, inclusive and equitable or more comprehensive narrations of the data. I think you need multiple stakeholders that bring different perspectives on that. And that it's families, that is, of course, leadership, that is teachers, and that it's students, when it's age-appropriate as well. What does this data mean to us, you know? Or what kind of data we need? Because the first process of this is, like, selecting data. What data is going to draw our decisions? And also to choose the data, you need a very eclectic team, a team that represents different points of view and different stakeholders that can provide multiple points of views on the data that you choose and the meaning that you make out of that data. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

So, if we talk about your work in particular. Even if, I know I'm kind of just throwing this at you, but if you think about the data, the various forms of data that you have attended to, and the various constituents you have worked with, talked with, accessed their perspectives around data, including their experiences as data. Can you think of an example in Chicago of data that you think could have been important, or can be important for educators, leaders to attend to, and how we could look at that or make meaning of that data, and with whom? I know that's kind of a little bit tough to pin down, but, you know, I'm thinking about some of your pieces I've read. You're looking at all different kinds of data. What are some of the most powerful data and, also, how could we look at those data using some of the strategies you are providing, which are: be more inclusive, be very intentional about who we're inviting and what data we're bringing to look at together. So I'm kind of asking you to, like, sketch that out a little bit. 

 

Federico Waitoller: 

Yeah, I don't know if the most, but one important one, and it often gets neglected, is students' voice, right? Students' perceptions and experiences of schooling. And how, I would like to hear more about what students say about choosing schools and desegregation, and how they're experiencing this effort, and how they are experiencing selective enrollments and magnet schools. And how they're experiencing going to a segregated school. And there's been work on this…I'm not just inventing these ideas. But, um, I think getting into students' experiences as part of school data, as part of district data, it's a key point of view. I mean, we tend to use, you know bird's-eye view kind of data that is huge: test scores, enrollment. But that doesn't tell us the story, right? And if we're gonna narrate the story, we gotta invite the storytellers, and if we gonna invite storytellers, we gotta invite the people who live there, who experience it every day. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Are there particular ways we could kind of craft or plan interactions with students? So that we're asking questions that are eliciting their perspectives? I mean, even sometimes we invite students in, but because, historically, students have not been positioned, kind of, as equal constituents in a setting, there's still these structural barriers that exist to really, truly accessing students' perspectives. So, can you just say a little bit more about what we need to be asking students, and how we need to be structuring how we're eliciting student voice in our approaches to integrated schools? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Well, I think you need to build routines on that, because if you make it a routine, students will become acquainted with how to do it. And teachers and principals become acquainted with how to, you know, how to work with students through it. What I mean is it cannot be one shot kind of thing: “Oh, we're gonna do a town hall meeting once a year to hear students.” Nah, it's gotta be something that is routine, that is work over time. And at the beginning, it may not work very well. Things don't tend to work very well the first time around. I mean, I've been a teacher; you, Kathleen, also work in schools. Many people listening to this are teacher or principals. You know that the first time you teach them, the first time you do something, it doesn't come out as you expect it sometimes. So, you gotta be patient, and you gotta stick with it, and you gotta build it as a habit and to work students through those issues and help them and teach them. I mean, a great opportunity to teach them so many things: to teach them how to narrate their experiences, create also graphs and figures on what they see in the school. It could be like a school fair, you know? But you gotta make it a routine and need to work with students over time. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Thank you. Alright, so as we wrap up, just to remind listeners, viewers, Dr. Federico Waitoller is a professor at the Department of Education at the University of Illinois, Chicago. I know your research agenda is focusing on inclusive education broadly, which is what I've shared in the introduction. But I know you are specifically looking at issues around access, experiences, and outcomes for students with disabilities in school choice programs. So, you're looking at charter schools, voucher programs. But also, you mentioned this a couple times, teacher learning. You've always attended to how to improve teacher learning and pedagogies, like how we're teaching and learning look in classrooms or in educational settings to improve and influence more inclusive education. So as we close, are there a couple resources that you'd like to point us to, to keep learning more about your work, and that can inform all of our collective work towards school integration and inclusive ed? 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Well, I'm going to encourage everybody to listen to my podcast, DiveIn. You can find in Spotify and probably we can put a link on this podcast. 

And I think one book that speaks a lot about the issues that we've been talking is my book called Excluded by Choice. It situates these families of students with disabilities' experiences within the history of neighborhoods in Chicago. So I think that would be two good resources. 

 

Kathleen King Thorius:  

Okay, all right, thank you so much, Dr. Federico Waitoller. Great to spend time with you again, my friend and colleague. All right, take care, thank you. 

 

Federico Waitoller:  

Thank you. 

 

Ruthie Payno-Simmons: 

Thank you for listening to Integration Now. 

These conversations remind us that advancing integration takes critical reflection, partnership, and action. If you’d like to continue the conversation or explore how the Region III Equity Assistance Center can support your work, we invite you to connect with us at maec.org.  

Until next time.