Belonging by Design: Educational Leadership, LGBTQ+ Students, and Integrated School Communities

Dr. Ruthie Payno-Simmons: 

Hello, and welcome to Integration Now, where we explore how history continues to shape today's integration challenges...and what we can do to advance more equitable outcomes for our students. I am Dr. Ruthie Payno-Simmons, Project Director for the Center for Education Equity, Region III at the Mid Atlantic Equity Consortium. We work alongside schools, districts, and state agencies to face the legacy of segregation head-on and turn the promise of integrated public schools into a reality students experience every day.  

LGBTQ+ students may share the same classrooms, hallways, and opportunities as their peers and still encounter policies, practices, and structures that limit their full participation in school life. True integration requires leaders to examine how belonging is designed into the school experience and whether every student can participate fully, safely, and authentically. How can educational leaders move beyond individual acts of support and build systems where LGBTQ+ students genuinely belong? 

Integration Now is hosted by my colleague Dr. Kathleen King Thorius, a leading scholar whose work focuses on dismantling systemic barriers and advancing culturally responsive practices for historically underserved students. She is a professor and has led major equity-focused initiatives, including founding the Great Lakes Equity Center. This episode, she's joined by Dr. Cynthia Mruczek, a scholar of educational leadership and inclusive school systems at the University of Arizona, to examine how to move beyond individual acts of support to build school systems where LGBTQ+ students can fully belong and thrive. 

Let’s get started. 

 

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Dr. Mruczek, so great to see you today. How are you doing? 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

It is wonderful to see you. I am doing well. I'm so excited to be here with you. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Thank you. Before we get started, for anyone listening, I want to just kind of ground us in why we're here. I'm really thrilled to be here with Dr. Cynthia Mruczek, a dear friend and colleague. Dr. Mruczek is Professor of Practice and Director of the Doctorate of Education Program in Educational Leadership at the University of Arizona. Big mouthful. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yep, it sure is! 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

And I know the title, but what I really know about you is that you have lots of experience. I mean, you're going on three decades working in public education systems around the United States, across, like, pre-K through higher education. And you've worked as a general education teacher, a special educator, a school instructional coach, you've done lots of consulting, with states, with districts, with partners. And your focus has been broadly on developing inclusive school communities and strong leaders of those communities. And, I know in your work in the doctorate, you're really focusing on preparing that next generation of leaders, which particularly now is so important. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Absolutely. Absolutely. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

And I also want to nod to all the time you spent with us at the previous Region III Equity Assistance Center, which we used to call the MAP Center, or the Midwest and Plains Equity Assistance Center. I would imagine we'll chat about that a little bit today. But, Cynthia, you were there with us for several years, you worked with lots of school districts around the region. And I know you have a particular perspective on how technical assistance can really help leaders kind of navigate the messiness of policy, practice, and history when they're making commitments and leading change in policy and professional learning and all those things, instruction, certainly. So, thanks for being here. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Thank you. That, you made my resume sound very fancy, so thank you. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Well. You are very fancy. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

And, you know, three decades is a real long time, and I've learned a lot over those three decades, but man, that time at the MAP Center was really, really instrumental in helping me think through the way we make research and scholarship really applicable for teachers, for classroom teachers, of course, but especially in my role now as the Director of the Ed Leadership Doctoral Program, really thinking about how we leverage scholarship - 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yep. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- toward developing inclusive spaces for all kids, regardless of who we're talking about, where we're talking about. And I reference the MAP Center work all the time, so there's no doubt we will talk about it today. No doubt. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

All right. Well, thank you so much, Cynthia. So why I had asked you to join today is related specifically to how Title IX has been interpreted by the federal administration, particularly over the last several federal administrations, and without going into a lot of detail, because there are a lot of companion resources that listeners can check out, we have seen Title IX's interpretation of sex narrow and broaden in relation to LGBTQIA+ students over the past several administrations. And I certainly know that the MAP Center and now the Center for Education Equity at the Mid-Atlantic Equity Consortium, where the Region I and III Equity Assistance Centers are held, have been wonderful about developing resources and engaging that conversation, what it means for leaders, particularly school leaders. 

But what I really want to emphasize, and I know you're right there with me on this, maybe even, certainly more powerfully, but I know you're right there with me, is that all our students belong, but particularly we have to continue to name the importance of, the identity of, the importance of, affirming, acknowledging, and protecting LGBTQIA+ youth in our schools and communities. And so that's what we're here to talk about. This is- 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

A deeply—this is a deeply personal journey, as a member of the LGBTQIA community, as a kid who grew up in public schools. As a young teacher, trying to navigate what it meant to be gay and a teacher, an elementary school teacher. Deeply personal, for sure, for sure. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Absolutely, and thanks for sharing that with us, because you and I were in, a lot of times in schools at the same time, working in the same district at one point, and I remember distinctly some of the conversations we had over the years with how you were navigating those contexts, and who you were, and wanting to be able to be who you were fully in your school community. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Absolutely. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

So, thank you. So, we talked in advance a bit about some things we might tackle and examine together, and I really wanted to start with, like, the examination of a school context, of a school culture, and what school leaders, what strong, inclusive leaders need to be attending to. 

And I'd like you to start with, like, you kind of led into this perfectly when you referenced your own experiences in school and, as both a student and as an educator and educational leader. And that is: how can we examine the organization of school life as it relates to affirming, supporting, and protecting LGBTQIA+ youth? So, how can we look at practices that are sometimes posed as, like, apparently neutral—you know, dress code, student records, facilities, dances, all of those things, athletics, classroom language, disciplinary procedures—and how those might create barriers and harm LGBTQIA students? Like, how should leaders identify and address those patterns? What have you found in your own experience? What advice would you give us? 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

So many things pop into my head, and the 20 or 30 minutes that we're gonna spend today, I have a feeling we're gonna kinda scratch the surface, and time is gonna come to a close, and we're gonna be like, “But we're not done yet!”, because there's so much to kind of dissect. 

I think the most important thing that comes to mind is I think about school leaders, educators, across the system, whether we're talking about PK up to 20+, one of the things that comes to mind is that being part of the LGBTQIA community is kind of a hot-button issue. There are people that don't want to touch talking about this with a 10-foot pole. A 20-foot pole, perhaps. There are many reasons for that: discomfort, you know, fear of the unknown, even religious beliefs, and those kinds of things. So one of the things that I often kind of speak about with my educational leaders is reminding them that, you know, public schools, public school classrooms are supposed to be for everyone. They are supposed to be places where all kids, regardless of who shows up - 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- and how they show up, it is supposed to be a place where they are able to learn, where they are welcomed, where they are safe. 

And unfortunately, with this particular issue, you have people who just don't know how to navigate the conversations. I recall, from many years ago in my own practice, a teacher was telling me how she kind of was telling kids, “Oh, don't use the word ‘gay’ around me,” because the kids were using it as a slur. 

 

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Mhm. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

But then another kid was coming out to a group of kids. And saw her, and they said, “No, no, no, we can't say that – 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- around her.” And it blew her mind. She was like, “No, that's not what I meant!” So, I think, often a lot of school educators, teachers are looking for kind of a pat rule, right?  

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Like a, like a one-size-fits-all, kind of, “this is how we do this.” And unfortunately, as much as we push standardization across, that's another podcast for another day, as long, as much as we push standardization across our schools, you're not gonna find a singular rule that's gonna help. But again, you know, I mentioned I talk about the MAP Center work all the time, one of the, one of the, most useful frameworks, that we leverage in our technical assistance work with the districts, and I continue to leverage in my courses that I teach, as well as the consulting I do, is the MAP Center's kind of framework around educational equity and the four pillars that make up educational equity. And I'm a former special educator, so I always use an acronym to remind myself of them, and it's ARMPO, right? A-R-M-P-O. Ha! I'm not gonna remember them now. That's all. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, you will. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Will I? 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

It takes a second. You will. Let's just say “ARMPO” for now, and then we'll come back to it. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

AMMPO for now, right? So, if we can think about educational equity and, as we—as you asked about in those questions: dress code, whether we're talking about dress code, whether we're talking about discipline, whether we're talking about bathrooms, whether we're talking about sports—if we can think through each of those in order to analyze the experiences of all groups of kids, who benefits from the way we're doing this policy? Or who is comfortable the way we're doing this policy? It's a really, really useful way to think about how we identify practices and policies that are not neutral in the first place. Right? Not neutral. That's a big message that I often give to my students is, you know, neutral, policy isn't neutral. It is written from a specific perspective. It is designed from a specific perspective. Then, teachers and educational leaders look at that policy and interpret it through their perspective and implement it from their perspective. So, without having an opportunity to kind of think through, "Who is benefiting from the way we are doing these things?" we're not gonna make the progress that we need. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, so you're, you're saying that if we have powerful frameworks that allow us to see really any issue from multiple angles, then we're more likely to be able to notice the complexity of the issue itself and to be directed toward solutions that come from multiple angles as well. So, there's that first part, it's the noticing. Because, like you said, in a lot of times the work that you're doing, you may be raising issues that may not be a problem to everyone, because they may not be attuned to how a particular practice or policy is harmful to some. They may not be in contact with that group, a group of people who identify in a particular way. Certainly, there's a lot of within-group diversity, I don't want to skate over, but frameworks are really powerful in that way.  

And I don't want to totally put you on the spot, but if you could give an example, maybe in that area of family communications. Think about a framework that allows us to analyze or think about, plan, and look at existing family communications practices of a teacher or school leader, etc. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Sure. You know, our daughter started school, and given that both my spouse and I are educators—I'm sure other educators who are parents can relate to this experience—we were very critical of how, things were being communicated, how, you know, things were being framed in our own child's experience. One simple example is, you know, the number of times I've crossed out “Father,” and signed, wrote in big capital letters, “Mother” or “Parent,” and signed my name. You know, there's, there's many, many opportunities like that.  

I think the framework that I like to think about in those cases, is that when folks do not fit into the structure that we've put out, are we, as educators, blaming them for their lack of whatever we're expecting? Or are we seeking information and learning from our community? So, and by that, I mean that by, you know, sending out a form that has mom and dad signatures, are we assuming then that a family that doesn't fit that structure has some sort of negative barrier that now the school has to overcome to deal with this student?  

And the framework I often offer is that of asset pedagogies, that of asset lenses. That we can look at, we can critique and say, “Okay, this family does not fit in this ‘box’ that we have here. Let's not jump to evaluation, let's jump to learning. Let's not jump to judgment, let's jump to asking questions. And learning about what is happening so that we can be better.” 

I talk about that all the time with teachers, like -   

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

“You can complain about families all day long. Are you gonna change that? Is that what you can change?” Because we can't change everything. But what we can do is reflect on our own practice -

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Mm-hm. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- and make it so that it's more accessible for everyone. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Make it so that there are more pathways for participation. And meaningful participation. 

Here's the ARMPO. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Alright, will you say that one more time so we get, the transcription, which I'll fix later, is called an armpit, so let's make sure we get that right. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah, it is ARMPO. It's Access. Representation. Meaningful Participation, and Outcomes. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Thank you. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Meaningful participation, just, not just a seat at the table, but an opportunity to actively engage - 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- in what's happening at the table. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

So, if we believe, and I certainly believe, that there are lots of educators who want to support LGBTQIA youth, they may feel uncertain for a lot of the reasons you talked about that may start inward and go outward, or start outward and go inward, historical, current, you know, it's so complex. They may fear making mistakes. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Absolutely. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

They may… like that teacher, you said, “Oh my gosh, like, her mind was blown, she felt horrible.” But she was talking to you about it.  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah, mm-hm. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Teachers may be encountering conflicting expectations from colleagues, from communities, especially in today, today's climate. So what's the, like, what are the features, or what kinds of professional learning helps educators move beyond awareness toward more responsible, more confident—if that, I don't even know if that's a goal, necessarily, but—toward more responsible, being more responsible stewards of our youth and making sure that they're valued and protected? Like, what's the kind of professional development that gets people in a position where they're better able to navigate a place where there are no easy answers? 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah. Fantastic question, and again, a million things go through my mind. Given that I never published off my dissertation, because I'm a professor of practice, and I think, you know, me, like, I read it, I know that, I think my mom may have read it. My dissertation was about teacher learning and thinking about how teachers learn where they learn, when they learn, what they learn, and what they need to learn. And overwhelmingly, what I learned was that teachers expect technical stuff. They expect, like, the how-to. They expect, like, a top 10 list. 

So many times during the MAP Center work, and technical assistance work, and partnerships, that, like, the teachers wanted to do what was right. They were like, “Just give me the top 10 list. Gimme it, and I will do it.” And I always said to them, because I'm hilarious, “If I had a top 10 list, I'd be traveling the world with Oprah,” like, I'd be a bazillionaire, because that would make this so much easier. And it's not. 

So what I would offer, in answer to that question about professional development, is we can't just focus on the how-to, of teaching. We have to also encourage teachers to engage in critical reflection about how they think about teaching and learning, how they think about the students in their classrooms, the narratives and stories they've heard that go around the school about, you know, those kids from the townhouses, and critiquing those kinds of things. I don't care how good your reading program is; if you don't believe that certain kids should be in a general ed classroom, I don't think it's gonna do much. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Could I jump in there and ask you to directly name the narratives that teachers have to confront and resist and counter about LGBTQIA+ youth? Like, what are the narratives there they need to be, like, on alert for, and be ready to respond to? 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah, the… 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

The narrative. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Fantastic question, and it connects to another point that was kind of floating around my head. I mentioned earlier, as a young teacher, being a lesbian teacher, I was not out at, at school. A few teacher friends knew, a few principal—you know, my principal knew, and the most important thing was that they kind of had my back. But when I was encountered with, say, for example, an instance of bullying, where kids were calling each other slurs, even in jest, quote-unquote, I would not say a word for fear of being outed in that moment. 

So, I think, in particular, for a particular example, instances of bullying, where kids are being, kind of, verbally or physically or emotionally, kind of, attacked because of the way they dress, the way they speak, the way, the words they use. It is imperative that teachers, and I would say particularly our straight ally teachers, to step in and engage in what, what, I would frame as some questioning of that kid. 

I think sometimes teachers make the mistake, and perhaps, it… I love teachers, so I shouldn't even say they make a mistake. They are not supported in thinking through the fact that they are often expected to know every answer. And they don't have to know every answer in every instance. But if they can pull aside a kid and say, “Hey, how do you think that made that kid feel? What did you mean by those comments? What are you trying to achieve by talking to this student that particular way?” 

And posing some questions to the student. I think teachers are really good at asking questions and that's natural for us. So, can you, as a teacher, as an educational leader, kind of intervene through questioning of students and opening up conversations - 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

- about their intent, about how they are engaging with one another. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, and you raise the point, too, where teachers are often kind of expected in lots of direct and indirect ways to know the answers. A lot of times, because of the support we don't give, or that they don't receive, the implication of that is that you know, “You better figure it out,” basically.  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yep. Mm-hm. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

That also, in a moment like that, that a teacher, you know, it's perfectly acceptable and not always a practice, can say, you know, “I'm not exactly sure what to say right now to you, my dear students. But I do know that this is not okay. And I'd like to talk about it. I, you know, I can tell right now that what is being done is harmful or could be hurtful.” So, you know, helping, like, make the meaning together and also modeling that we all may not necessarily be comfortable talking about difference, and particularly when difference gets leveraged, like, weaponized, or leveraged as a way to diminish somebody's right to be somewhere, and diminish someone for who they are. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah. Diminishing their humanity. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Totally, yeah. Yeah, to diminish their humanity, and, and, so, a lot of times when we say things like, “Oh, don't say that, we shouldn't say those things,” even if, like because we're not sure how to have that conversation, so it can either go to, like, being punitive, right? So you're like, “You shouldn't say that, and here's a referral, or whatever.” Or it can be a total avoidance, and maybe just, like, a behind-the-scenes situation, or checking in with, “Are you just checking in? Are you okay?” Like, there's so many different things, but we have to be, like you said, able to ask those questions and ask them publicly sometimes within the context, you know, where something comes up, arises. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

And, and, shoot, think about how much better off our society would be if we were just able to say, “You know, I'm not really sure of the answer here, but I know we need to talk about it. And I know I, I know we need to kind of figure this out together.” 

What you just said reminded me of that phrase that I've heard, and I'm sure I used a million times, “Oh, that language doesn't belong here at school, right? Those words don't belong… we don't use those here, that school.” And again, you know, it goes back to that idea of intent on teachers. Like, the intent is pure there, right? Perhaps, like, they're just trying to create a professional, you know, safe environment, but by saying that, the message, then, is, “Oh, that's taboo, we don't talk about those things.” 

I think that goes for LGBTQ kids, it goes for disability, that goes for race, that goes for gender, I mean, you're going across – religion! – you're going across all of, all of the identifiers. “We don't talk about that here.” What better place to talk about it, if you are having conversations with students and learning together? 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

To that point, how can a teacher or a leader engage, include LGBTQ students in the decisions that affect them, while also protecting them or not asking them, like, to disclose, often, you know, with really good intentions by educators. So, like, how can educators listen to students or learn from students without putting them in that situation? Can you think of some ways that you've seen that in your own practice, that maybe you've done some coaching with school districts around those areas? 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Absolutely. The first thing I'll say is what we don't do is go find the kid you think is gay and say, “Hey, can you come and talk to me? Because I need to understand your perspective.” Because you're putting that kid in a space, as you said, of vulnerability that, A, they may not be ready for, shoot, you may be wrong, like, there's so many issues, and you're asking a kid to speak on behalf of a student body? Additionally, I think of how often, especially in the younger grades, I think, that we dismiss the voices of our kids, of our students. I think we don't give them enough credit sometimes for knowing how they feel in a space, knowing what they think about things. You know, we say things like, “Oh, they're not ready to deal with that.” They, they probably are, and we're kind of discounting what they have to offer us. 

So, I agree that our, our school leaders, teachers, district folks, and certainly in higher ed, we need to figure out ways to center the voices of our students. But we have to do it in ways that are systematically built in. So it's not like, “Oh, shoot, we had a kid, we have this bathroom issue we gotta deal with.” Well, let's have an assembly. It's a, a system. A structured system in which students are able to voice their perspectives, their thoughts, their, their, their, their wishes! Their dreams for the space. 

I am always reminded of, because of my special ed background, and frankly, the work at the MAP Center, the rally cry of the, you know, disability rights movement: “Nothing about us without us.” And all too often, I think, across the board, we, we do, you know, we, we do policy on kids. We, we put curriculum, we do it, like, to them. But we don't do it with them.  

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah.  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

So, one, great example, again, this is through my, my, the doctoral program that I lead, lots of our students are engaging youth participatory action research as a way to bring students together to talk about the things they believe are important. So, creating structures like that, where you have a student—not just a student council in the traditional way—but perhaps a group of, of an advisory board of students that you, as the school leader or the teacher, listen to, that you engage with them in, in regular, conversation. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Consistent conversation. But I think it's also, connected to, an idea, that I, again, I learned a lot at the MAP Center, which is cultural humility. Like, we can learn, you know, about, just kind of, learning about cultures, that's, like, kind of the first step, I think. But cultural humility is saying, “I have so much to learn from everybody. I have so much to learn from all the voices.” And I think that is central for leaders, especially when we're talking about minoritized populations. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, so I'm gonna pull out a couple of, I think, like, nuggets of practice that you just talked about. One is, we want to avoid inviting people because of either presumed or even confirmable identity markers, right? Specifically. However, we want to create routines and ensure that we have routines in our system that invite groups and individuals who have had different access to, at different levels of access if we go back to that framework—access, meaningful participation and outcomes—to regularly inform and critique, like, the policies and practices of the system. 

And so there might be a set of questions, let's say, that an educator or a principal works with an Equity Assistance Center consultant to develop that will help them, as leaders, ask questions that don't necessarily, like, you know, paint people in a box, but that, by building routines, it allows people less vulnerability, I guess I'll say, hopefully, to share their perspectives. And then the other part is you have to actually do something about it. Like, people have to see that what they're sharing is being incorporated into real decisions. 

The thing I kind of want to maybe move us toward a close with—and then if there's anything else you want to say about how to leverage your Equity Assistance Center, that would be great, or other resources if people don't have access necessarily to a formal relationship through their district—is so much about this so-called debate about whether we should be addressing specifically LGBTQIA youth in schools and how they should be protected has really, I think, falsely created, there's been a false narrative that somehow schools are doing things without families' permission, without families' knowledge, that they're acting covertly, and that, that that is a pervasive kind of practice. I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit, and also offer the ways in which we're accounting for families, just in the very way you talked about it early with your own family, that we're accounting for families in how we're engaging LGBTQIA youth, and making sure that they're affirmed, supported, and protected. 

 

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

I wish I could, like, wave a magic wand, because I have heard too many instances where students have been utterly alienated, but students and teachers have been utterly alienated and made to feel as if they're very humanity is up for debate. 

There are several assumptions here that I think we have to find some common ground on. And as educators, one that I often leveraged in my own classroom, certainly leverage now in my graduate classes, is: everyone belongs here and I am going to do what I need to do to make sure everybody belongs here. And it's like a classic teacher move, right? Like, the parent comes in and says, “Why are you, you know, calling George, ‘she/her’?” And, you know, the response, my response, would be, let's, you know, “How's your student feeling in my classroom? Does your student feel safe? Does your student feel comfortable? Does your student feel loved? Does your student feel like they are growing to their potential?” Because in this classroom, in this space, my job is to make sure everybody can learn. And I'm going, and I know that the core thing is that everybody has to feel safe.

So, that's kind of one thing that I think about as you, kind of, pose that really difficult question, because it's, I wish we could just fix it, the fact that students' humanity is being debated. The fact that we are in some areas of the country, and, like, questioning whether it's a, like, LGBTQIA community is like a valid identity or community is remarkably frustrating. Like, it's here. It's been here, it's always been a part of the human experience. And it is the value that, that our society and certain members of our society, the negative value, the negative connotations, that have kind of risen to the surface and created such a conflict-laden space. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

If I could jump in, I think, one of the points you made earlier about starting from a place that makes it clear that your role as an educator is to make sure everybody belongs and is supported in the space that you have, you know, purview over. And to, to, from the offset, with families, talk about what that means; with students, talk about what that means; and ask, “In what ways can I do and be better? In what ways can our schools do and be better?” I think in a lot of ways, that mitigates some of this, the distrust, I'll say, that some of these bigger narratives have, I almost feel like, have been designed to create.  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

If it goes back to, does your child feel cared for and able to learn because they know they belong here? You know, I think it's hard to find a parent, who wouldn't be on the same, same, being human with each other. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Yeah. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

And I think that's maybe where we should end, this idea that we're not here to debate the validity of anyone's identity as human or fully, a fully, feasible, or available identity. These are, that's not the debate. That's, we're starting from the place of: all of our students and who they are is wholly human. And they shouldn't need to leave part or all or some of their identities at the door, when they enter into our schools and classrooms. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

And I think that that takes a skilled leader, right? To be able to say, “I'm creating a space, we are dedicated and focused on creating a space that is welcoming for all, and we are careful and thoughtful about ensuring that we are asking the question. Is every, is everybody safe? Not, not just the loudest voice, or, you know, the kid who fits in the box perfectly.”  

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah.  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Is everybody the, and again, that goes a lot back to the, that idea of thinking about how we are viewing our students, and how we are viewing our families. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah, yep. Well, like you said, we were gonna have lots more to say, we were gonna talk, we actually ended up talking for an hour, and I don't know where that time went. I know. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Really? Oh my goodness. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yeah! Got the little timer that's counting. So, we should wrap up, but, what I would love is if you have any resources that you'd like to share, you can send them to me after the fact. We'll include them in resources with this podcast. If there's anything that comes to mind now that you want to share, certainly do feel free. And I want to give you a last opportunity to add anything you didn't get to, or you can just say, “No, we're good, we can go on with our day and keep doing this work.”  

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

I feel really good about our conversation, but again, it, like, makes me think of all the, you know, 150 other things that we could be doing. I think what I'll leave with is that I think the best thing that educational leaders can do is ask questions. And that's scary, particularly, like we talked about with teachers, they're supposed to know the answers. Principals? Man, they're supposed to know the answers, they're supposed to know what's happening, but there is a certain level of confidence that comes with asking questions to learn more about something you're unfamiliar with, or you're, or an experience that isn't something that you yourself have experienced. 

And, I think the more questions we can ask with an open heart and an open mind and authenticity, I think we're moving in the right direction. Whether we're talking about policy, or systems, or practices, or that interaction that you had with one kid on the playground the other day, asking questions, I think, is a powerful, powerful space. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Thank you so much, my friend, for sharing. 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

What a good time. Thank you so much. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Yep, so, Dr. Cynthia Mruczek, we will share some resources that you've developed, with this podcast. Also, thank you so much for your time with the Equity Assistance Center program. Over the years, really, you've had a lot of connections, direct and sort of, peripheral to the Equity Assistance Center program, and I really appreciate all you've contributed in that way. So, thanks for joining me, and we'll say goodbye! 

  

Dr. Cynthia Mruczek: 

Thank you so much. I had an awesome time, and thanks for hanging out. 

  

Dr. Kathleen King Thorius: 

Alright, thanks. 

 

Dr. Ruthie Payno-Simmons: 

Thank you for listening to Integration Now. These conversations remind us that advancing integration takes critical reflection, partnership, and action. If you’d like to continue the conversation or explore how the Region III Equity Assistance Center can support your work, we invite you to connect with us at maec.org. Until next time.