The Corner CAFE Podcast: PAT

Nikevia Thomas:

Hello, everybody. This is Nikevia.

Jessica Webster:

And Jessica.

Nikevia Thomas:

From MAEC's CAFE and you're listening to a Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let's get started.

Jessica Webster:

In today's episode, we're joined by guests from the Parents as Teachers program, which is also known as PAT. Their evidence-based home visiting model provides comprehensive and varied services to families with children, prenatal through kindergarten, and it also offers us deep insights into early childhood development. Since 1984, the PAT model has been rigorously tested by peer-reviewed studies and is shown to produce outstanding results for families. PAT has affiliates throughout the United States and actually the world. We are so excited to learn more about how their programs help support families to become educational leaders for their children.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes. And before we dive in, let's get to know our guests. First, we have Melissa Hassler, a Parent Educator for PAT at Community Prevention Partnerships in Berks County, Pennsylvania. Previously, she was a Head Start teacher for 21 years. Melissa learned about PAT when she participated in a program with her now three-year-old son. Currently deeply involved with children and youth services, families and substance abuse clients, Melissa finds it gratifying to see these families overcome adversities and choose to be there for their children.

Jessica Webster:

Up next, we have Anabel Oceguera, Manager of Family Center programs at the Maternal and Child Health Consortium. Born in Mexico and later migrating to the United States, she holds a degree in social work from West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Anabel's life experiences enable her to better understand the large immigrant community in Chester County and help them overcome barriers to success, something she is truly passionate about.

Nikevia Thomas:

And joining us also is Lauren Waite, a Parent Educator for the PAT program at Beginnings, Inc. in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Lauren's journey with PAT started as a program participant for four and a half years with her now seven-year-old son. She credits the program with transforming her life, connecting her with valuable parenting resources, and turning her into not just a parent, but a family leader.

Jessica Webster:

And rounding out our large group today of guests, last but certainly not least, we have Karen Shanoski and she is the Family Support and Community Engagement Director at the Center for Schools and Communities, and also serves as Pennsylvania's PAT State Office Director. Karen's extensive background includes leadership roles in family support programs. She previously served on PAT's national board, strengths-based family engagement practices, and community partnerships. She and her husband are also proud parents of two creative adult sons.

Oh my goodness. We're so excited to have you all here with us, so thank you so much for joining us.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes, thank you. Thank you. So let's get started with you, Karen. Now, I have the pleasure of having worked with you on many, many things, but can you tell our audience more about the components that make up evidence-based home visiting model?

Karen Shanoski:

Sure, I'd be really thrilled to. Parents as Teachers, we call it an evidence-based home visiting and we do visit people in their homes. But truly, the home visit is only one component of the model. It's made up of four components and my three co-participants can correct me whenever I make a misstep. But the home visit, the personal visit is really critically important. It's that unique one-on-one time. Parents as Teachers works in large part because of the relationship-building that is done among the Parent Educators and the families. And each personal visit includes a parent-child interaction, a conversation about parenting, developmental strategies with their children and with themselves as they're growing as parents, and then a family well-being portion.

Connected to the family well-being, another component of the model is having a resource network. Each affiliate is encouraged to have a strong resource network and all of the staff are building relationships with the organizations in their communities so that as they're working with families and identifying strengths and needs that they have, they can be connecting them perhaps as a volunteer with an organization or perhaps as someone who can help out in a situation where the family has a gap in some resources. Another important component is some of the screenings that are done. So we want to make sure that families have health services and children are screened using developmental screening tools. A lot of our programs use Ages and Stages: 3, and Ages and Stages: Social-Emotional. In addition, the families take part in a family-centered assessment, a strength-based assessment that is usually observational and then used in a conversation with the parents to talk about goals. So what do you want to accomplish here? Sometimes it's, "I want to sleep through the night. Please help me sleep through the night." Sometimes it's, "I want to go to college." It can be all kinds of things and we try to use a SMART goals perspective in working with families. And then we have group connections and we find that group connections are so very important as social connections with families. Being able to watch other parents parent can be really, really helpful. And both parents and children can come together in group connections. Sometimes it's a parent-only situation and it depends on the topics. When Parents as Teachers programs are putting together the programs, it's either something with a parent-child interaction, something about developmental parenting, or something about family well-being. So I think that's pretty much the four components. What do you think? Women, did I do okay with the four? Okay. Great.

Nikevia Thomas:

Very robust. Thank you, Karen.

Jessica Webster:

So it's a very all-encompassing program. It's really wrapping around multiple supports and programming options around families, which is really dynamic. So let's turn to our Parent Educators. How about Lauren: why don't we start with you? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience both as a parent through the program and then the work that you're doing now for PAT?

Lauren Waite:

I'd love to. It's one of my favorite subjects. We were new to my town when I learned about Parents as Teachers and I was excited that it was a home visiting program because I did not know my way around. So that took some of the pressure off that they would come right to me. I was a sociology major but with an education background also, so I loved that they talked about child development and specific to the age and stage we were in - potty training was one of my nightmares. And so I really appreciated later in my journey having that support and that everything I was coming up against as a parent, there was something in the curriculum to suit that and to fit that need. I had been parenting kind of in isolation. I mean, I had the support of my family, but I didn't know my community, and my Parent Educator encouraged me to join a mom's group and to come to our play group program at Beginnings and we made friends that I'm still friends with now years later. And I went from kind of doing it on my own in my own little corner of my living room to really being a part of my community. They helped me find a dentist and they introduced me to the programs in the library and just really enriched our lives overall.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, parenting can be very isolating even if you're in an established community, right? Because so much of it happens inside of your house and is based on your experiences and what you know or your own experiences or family and culture. So I think that's very true. That resonates a lot with me about that isolation piece, especially I can imagine as being a new person in the community. Melissa, what about you?

Melissa Hassler:

I learned about Parents as Teachers because my son was initially enrolled in the Nurse-Family Partnership program. Well, I was enrolled in it when I was pregnant with him. Daniel was actually a COVID baby, a right-at-the-beginning-of-COVID baby. So it was wonderful to have the Nurse-Family Partnership in our lives at that time because it was the only person that we could communicate with that was allowed to come to our house. So that helped. He was a preemie too. So after he spent some time in the NICU, when he came home, it was great to have someone who could help us because we were isolated, very isolated at the time.

And then our nurse actually left to find another job and instead of replacing her, we were offered a spot in the Parents as Teachers program. So we got a Parent Educator who started coming to visit us at our house as well. She is no longer with our program though, but was a wonderful person, introduced us to our group connections that we do. I was never able to attend those because I was working full-time at another job at the time. But we still got all the things that were offered at those group connections even if we couldn't attend. If they did projects there, she would bring the projects the next time she come to visit our house so that Daniel could still do those things that the other children were doing. It was a wonderful experience. And after being in that program for about eight months, my Parent Educator said, "Hey, by the way, we have an open position in our program. I really think you would be awesome at the job. You should apply." And I was like, "I don't know." I was at my other job for almost 21 years at that point and I'm like, "I don't know." But I was kind of looking because COVID really did me in as a classroom teacher. It was just very different when we went back in the classroom, things just weren't the same.

So I took a leap of faith. I applied for the position. I got the position. It actually took five months to be hired because the hiring process where I work is very long. But yeah, and now I've been here for almost 18 months. I love this job. It has helped with Daniel being... I can work my schedule around his schedule when he's in preschool now. He has some health issues. So when he has doctor's appointments, I can rearrange my schedule. So the flexibility is wonderful, but then I also get to use that same flexibility with my families. And it's like a whole program even with my whole family, with my families that I serve now, it's being one basically because they're dealing with the same kind of stuff that we're dealing with in a lot of cases.

And then I don't know how our families are given to us or if it's just the luck of the draw, but I have a lot of children and youth service clients right now, which is something I worked within in my previous job as a classroom teacher. I worked for very underserved, underprivileged children. So we had lots of children who were going through the system at the time. So I could bring that expertise to this now thing. I also work with substance abuse clients, which is something brand new to me though. So I kind of have to reach out to the community resources Karen was talking about to get the help that they need. And we have a wonderful relationship with our hospital local to us. They have a program called Soft Landings and it's for substance abuse clients and we work very, very well with them. So it's been lovely to find out about resources in our community that I never knew existed.

Jessica Webster:

That's amazing. What a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Melissa Hassler:

You're welcome.

Jessica Webster:

Anabel, how would you add? How has your experience been or what do you enjoy most about your role with Parents as Teachers?

Anabel Oceguera:

Well, here at Maternal and Child Health Consortium, we first got... Around 2014, I was working with our Healthy Start program that serves mostly pregnant high-risk mothers and their babies up to 18 months. So the agency was looking for a curriculum that was evidence-based and our family center was already using this curriculum. So the director at that time was like, "Well, why not give it a chance? We have it already in our agency and it's doing great things." So they brought it into our Healthy Start team. And I remember that it was great. It was everything we needed. It had all the components we needed. And in the community, families already knew what Parents as Teachers was from our other program. So it was a great match. And then back in 2019, I got the opportunity to change a little bit and I became part of our Family Center program and I came in as a Parent Educator. And even though I was using the same curriculum as our Healthy Start, it definitely changed my views on what Parents as Teachers is because with our Healthy Start team, we were only curriculum users, but with our Family Center team, we are affiliates.

So it changes completely the role that we have here at the Family Center. So it's just great. I got to learn new things even though I already was working with the curriculum. Obviously there's more things to it, like Melissa, Lauren, and Karen know that there's those 21 essential requirements that we didn't have with curriculum users. So even though it was more work, I loved it. I love every minute of it. I love going into the homes and building that relationship with these families and the children. Especially when they're younger, I like to visit younger kids because you grow with them, you become part of them. It's crazy how one month you go, they're not walking, and then the following month they're running. And I'm like, "Weren't you just a baby?" So I love that about it.

We build that trust with the families and helps to get more families into the program once those families graduate because they just talk amazing things about the relationship, the programs, the group connections, the home visitation services. And like Karen was saying, not just that, but everything else that we serve and each case is different. So every day is a new learning curve.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah. It sounds almost like you get to be like an auntie to the family.

Anabel Oceguera:

Exactly. Yes. Funny thing in our Healthy Start program, they call us "Madrinas," which is godmother.

Nikevia Thomas:

Oh, yeah. That's nice.

Anabel Oceguera:

And then once they knew that our Healthy Start and our Family Center program were connected, they were from the state agency, they started calling the Parent Educators "Madrinas" too and it's crazy because, you know, like a godmother.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, that's really powerful. I mean, that speaks to the power of the work for sure.

Anabel Oceguera:

Right?

Nikevia Thomas:

Yeah.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah.

Nikevia Thomas:

So since we're-

Karen Shanoski:

If I just-

Nikevia Thomas:

Oh, go ahead, Karen.

Karen Shanoski:

Could I pick up a little bit on that?

Nikevia Thomas:

Yeah.

Karen Shanoski:

We are using the phrase "Parent Educator" and that's a very generic phrase. Some people, some programs call their staff that are directly involved with families "Family Development Specialists," some call them "Coaches," some call them "Madrinas" apparently, some call them "Family Support Staff." So there are a lot of names, but we do use the phrase "Parent Educator" just to make it generic. We all know we're talking about the same thing.

I wanted to pick up too on this is a relationship between an adult and an adult. And we all enjoy the experiences of having children be the beneficiary of all this work. But this is about partnering with moms and dads and really helping them be the best parents that they can be so that they can have all the different joys in life with child-rearing. And I also wanted to mention that families can enroll prenatally through the first year of school. So these three women might be working with families at very different stages in early childhood.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, thank you for that.

Nikevia Thomas:

So, can you all share how do you see families growing during this time in the PAT program? Anybody want to share any prenatal to first year of school experiences?

Lauren Waite:

I'd love to. Sometimes it's literally because I had a family recently that was excited because they just had another baby and they would get me for six more years.

Nikevia Thomas:

Oh, that's so nice.

Lauren Waite:

Because we do get attached, you bond with the families, and so sometimes you're literally with a mom before they become officially a mom while they're growing their first child. And you get to follow them all the way through, so you get to see them blossom from the tentative, "I can't believe they're letting me take this little baby home from the hospital on my own" moments, to coming into their own and building that confidence and really learning the skills and sometimes becoming a second-time or third-time mom or dad. And we just get to walk beside them for all of that. And it's just such a beautiful experience to see. The Parent Educators are so... They become your cheerleader, in your corner. Especially since we're strength-based and it was funny because I was talking to my Parent Educator earlier today and she's excited to hear this when it comes out because she has watched me go from tentative and quiet to getting to tell our story. And it's so fun to watch people grow and connect them to the resources that really help them thrive.

Nikevia Thomas:

That's nice. Thank you.

Karen Shanoski:

I bet you all have stories and I hope you'll tell them. Just to maybe prompt, one of the findings from research is that through Parents as Teachers, parents increase their knowledge of early childhood development and improve their positive parenting practices. Parents as Teachers often, because of those screenings, serves as an early detection of developmental delays and then connection with services. And again, because of some of the screenings, parent, child, and the whole family's health and well-being is strengthened. Parents as Teachers has been shown to prevent child abuse and neglect, to increase children's school readiness and success, and I would dare to say increase the parents' readiness because that's equally important. As a parent, I can think back to those kindergarten days and know that I knew more the second time around. And more recently, some research has been done to show that Parents as Teachers can improve family economic well-being and also to strengthen community capacity and connectedness in part through that resource network. So I'm betting that you all have some story to tell about one of those research findings.

Anabel Oceguera:

I can talk a little bit. When Lauren was speaking, it reminded me that sometimes we have families that we serve all the children in the home. And what Karen was saying, how we teach the parent the first time and then them having say, "Oh, remember when you did this with my firstborn? So I'm applying that to my second born." So in our program, that's what we want. We want for the parents to remember all the little techniques we're teaching, but also to become independent so that capacity-wise maybe for the third baby we're not able to serve them, but at least they're remembering what we were teaching them about those early years or terrible twos or anything like that. That always lightens my heart. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. They remembered what I taught them three years ago." So that's always nice to hear about the families remembering and growing themselves.

Jessica Webster:

And I would imagine, I mean, this is probably not quantifiable, but I mean, not only are you then taking those skills, practicing them with your next child, but I would imagine when you're at the park and you're talking to a friend who's saying, "Hey, I'm really struggling." Maybe if they're talking about, "Oh, I learned this technique. Here's how you do it." I mean, so the ripple effect then becomes humongous and that might be hard to quantify, but I can imagine that they're sharing these skills out. That confidence gives them the ability to help others as well. That's amazing. Thank you for that. Karen, I know you and I have talked a lot in our conversations about that transition from early childhood education to kindergarten. And I know you had mentioned some ways that your program, PAT, supports families and in working with schools as students, as families are transitioning into a kindergarten setting. So can you tell us a little bit more about what that might look like for families?

Karen Shanoski:

Sure. I can give you some generic kinds of ideas and what we're hoping happens. And I believe all three of your programs actually have some specific programs that help families make that connection with school. I mean, throughout the whole time, I'm glad you picked up on that confidence, it's this idea of confidence and competence that a parent can feel that they really can be their child's best advocate, their child's best teacher and guide in life. And so in terms of getting ready for school, in a really literal sense, here in Pennsylvania, we encourage the PAT programs to make connections with the early learning standards and understand and be able to explain to parents curiosity is a learning strategy. So encourage your child to ask questions, ask questions yourself, that's really important, that going for a walk can be like a science experiment. And so again, helping parents see that everything they do has a connection with their child becoming successful in a more formal learning environment.

A lot of our group connections also I think help families with everything from going to the library and beginning to use the library as a resource in the community, even if it's primarily for entertainment purposes. I used to take my boys to the Saturday movies. But still, we knew about libraries then and how to use them. Some of the programs do "What You Do Matters," which is helping parents understand brain development. And again, all those basic daily things. Some programs use a workshop series called "Goals and Assets" about financial management for family resources, which also helps feeling secure and being able to make plans going forward for being in a community. Many of the programs do more formal kindergarten readiness with the schools in their communities through visits and through having children and parents experience drop off and pick up. Some of our families do use Head Start or child care services, but some of our families have no connection with care for their children outside of their home. And so kindergarten is like, "Whoa, you mean I leave them there? You mean they're going to eat somebody else's food?" That kind of stuff.

So there's a lot of one-on-one, but there are some other programs that from the early learning standards through some of the workshop series that families can participate in. Maybe the three of you would like to share something about some of the programs that you do that are most related to kindergarten. Oh, I apologize. I do want to emphasize that, back to the beginning, the confidence and competence that we really want parents to... We try to use those words: you're the family's leader. And it's both moms and dads. There are more women enrolled in Parents as Teachers, but both moms and dads are enrolled. And we want them to see themselves as leaders and that we help teach them how to advocate for themselves and for their children and be thinking, "What's the trajectory for my child? What is he or she showing an interest in? How do I talk to the teacher if I'm concerned about something or I'm excited about something?" I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Anabel Oceguera:

I can share a little bit of what our Family Center here in Maternal and Child Health Consortium does. We have a kindergarten readiness transition program with one of our local school districts. We have partnered up with them. They partner up with us for us to use their facilities, so we go every summer for two weeks. We have a kindergarten transition program. Like Karen was saying, there's still many kids that don't have any preschool experience and many of the families that we serve are in these numbers. So going from all your life that you've known as a child, five, six years in your home with your mom, and that's it. It is like, I could not imagine being five years old and saying, "You have to say goodbye to your mom and you're going to be there for...how long? And I have to do things on my own and my mom isn't going to be there." So this transition program that we have here serves greatly for that purpose.

We do offer transportation, so that's a big key factor because even if we do have kids that have preschool experience, most preschools don't have buses in our area. Even from, you know, riding the bus. I helped during the first two days in the bus and it's tears after tears. They don't want to leave mom's hand. And then I compare that to the last day, everyone is like, "Oh, what do you mean we're not coming back?" No, it's done. And they're like, "Oh, well, I really like the bus." So they get to build connections. And for those children that do end up going to district's elementary school is a great transition because it's a familiar place. They know they've been there before. Most of them have already seen their teachers from this transition program because the district allows their teachers to teach the transition program. So it's a great partnership we have with this local school district in our area that is just amazing.

We have surveys at the end of the summer program and parents love it. Parents wish every school district was like this because we do have the parents that don't go to the school district, but they can come because we serve them. And they're like, "We wish our district had this because the children will know... It's better for them to know where they're going instead of sitting in this bus thinking about all the traumas that they might go to or experience, all the nervousness." A lot of kids do throw up when they're nervous. So it's just hectic. So our transition program is great for that.

Jessica Webster:

That's really powerful. That'd be beneficial for a lot of families to participate in schools to provide for their students that are coming into school. Because even if you are in a preschool year, right? It's all those different things that you don't think about, riding a bus, or just even the size of the facility and how many different faces are at a facility in a public school or even a smaller private school versus a preschool program, an early childhood program. That's very true.

Anabel Oceguera:

Right. Yeah.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah.

Karen Shanoski:

I think those group connections are another point for parents to be able to talk with each other about how this transition is going. And Parents as Teachers can actually... A family can continue to be involved through that first year of school so that there's not this hard break at this big momentous time in the family's life, but that the families can stay enrolled. And those group connections, I'm confident serve a good purpose for helping families be connected about their experiences.

Jessica Webster:

So this is amazing. And I'm thinking if I'm listening to this and I'm a family, I would want to know how I can be involved in a PAT program, like Lauren and Melissa were able to participate in. What is the process for learning more about that as a family or a grandparent?

Karen Shanoski:

I think each program will have a different intake process, but I know that most programs are eager for families to find them. Just from reports, the highest way that Parents as Teachers programs encounter family is through other families. "Hey, you should try this out." Some programs work with OBGYNs. Some families work with WIC offices. I mean, some programs work with other community-based services as a means of just sharing information. Some work with insurance companies. Variety of ways that PAT programs are involved in the community and then know that they can refer to the different Parents as Teachers programs. And again, from that prenatal period, the family can stay enrolled through the first year in school. Probably they would enroll with a PAT program no later than when a child is four, so that they get the benefit. We think that... Well, research shows that the best results come when families are enrolled between two and three years. But Melissa, Anabel, and Lauren, maybe something about how people either find you or how they can enroll.

Melissa Hassler:

How we get referrals for our program are through the WIC office. We work with insurance programs. We do a lot of, like I said, CYS cases. Our substance abuse disorder programs in our area give us a lot of referrals, word of mouth. We also, because of the overhead program that we're under, which is Community Prevention Partnership, we do a lot of outreach and community services. So when there's events, we set up tables at those events as well so that we can get our program out there. And that's how we receive our referrals.

Karen Shanoski:

Amazing.

Lauren Waite:

We do similarly. OBGYNs, insurance companies, pediatricians, the library sometimes tells people, people can self-refer in Johnstown by going to beginningsinc.org and signing up. And we do different recruitment things. Some of our families are brought to us through our playgroup, our Parents and Children Together, which is right at our office. So we have the umbrella of Beginnings to help connect people to our program also. So that's helpful in Johnstown.

Karen Shanoski:

Parents as Teachers does not have income requirements. Any family is welcome to enroll. Some funding sources do set some limits so that there are some programs that may serve families with certain incomes as a priority, but the model itself does not have any income requirements. I'm sorry. Just jump in again. Jessica-

Jessica Webster:

No, that's good.

Karen Shanoski:

You mentioned grandparents. I'm guessing all three of you, if not families that you're working with, you know of families in your program where grandparents or other family members are taking a lead role as a caregiver of a child or the children and work with the parents too. But lots of different family configurations are involved in our programs.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you for that.

Nikevia Thomas:

This has been quite the conversation. I feel so much more informed about PAT. Thank you all. As we wrap up, there's a final question that we ask all our guests. From your perspective, if a school wanted to adapt their current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table, where should the school begin? And what is one thing that people can do today to begin building relationships of trust between families and educators?

Lauren Waite:

I mean, we'd love to do a warm handoff with our programs to educators. I think that's key. So communication and rapport, I think, are key.

Nikevia Thomas:

Communication and rapport.

Lauren Waite:

Or it all comes down to building relationships. I guess I could make that one thing, but more than one word. And I think that that's so helpful. One of the things I love about our work that we do is it's all strength-based and all kind. I always wanted to be a Care Bear when I grew up and this is the closest I can get-

Nikevia Thomas:

That's adorable.

Lauren Waite:

To doing that. To put love out in the world. And to give that to parents and kids, I mean, I can't say enough about the program and about what we get to do and it's basically Care Bears...

Jessica Webster:

That may be a good podcast for next time. What kind of Care Bear would you...

Nikevia Thomas:

What kind of Care Bear are you?

Lauren Waite:

We should. Yeah, that would be great.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, thank you for that.

Anabel Oceguera:

I just-

Jessica Webster:

Go ahead, Anabel.

Anabel Oceguera:

I think that school districts, most of them are very structured and they have different guidelines and things they have to do. And if they're public schools, they have more things from each state, from each local municipality. But I feel like what's great about Parents as Teachers that any district could adapt to is meeting parents where they're at. I, myself, I have a five-year-old. And parents are busy and sometimes just meeting them where they're at. Some parents are not available during work hours, at all. They get in trouble for being on their phones, answering phone calls. So it's like, "Oh, well, you didn't pick up. So you must not care about your kid." "No, I was working because if I can't work, I can't provide for my children." So meeting parents where they're at. We're huge on home visitation. I know school districts are busy, but some parents could benefit from that. Some children could benefit from that.

And just, I know capacity-wise and everything with the shortage of teachers and everything that might be 20 years from now, but just meeting them where they're at, meeting them in their language, or having an interpreter for those families that cannot speak the main language would be great. Because for example, I just came from a home visit and the child has some special education program and the progress report was sent in English. The mother has... She doesn't know how to speak English, so how is she going to be her child's first teacher if she cannot even understand a progress report sent by the special program education? So you would think we would be there, but unfortunately we still need some fixing, some more steps. But definitely meeting parents where they're at is huge.

Jessica Webster:

I agree. Thank you, Anabel. Thank you for that. Melissa, what do you think?

Melissa Hassler:

I have to agree with what everyone else said. I mean, the meeting where parents are at, that's probably the best response ever because even on our program, we've got to meet our parents where they're at. If that means I have to meet them at McDonald's at 7:30 in the morning because they don't want me to come to their house, that's where I'm going to meet them. It also means that I might have to meet them at 7:00 PM at their house because they're working. So you've got to understand how their family is built and structured and what they're going through to be able to even begin to help them be their child's first teacher. If we can't be flexible and get on their level and include them, we're never going to get anywhere. And I know schools, like you were saying, schools are very structured and stuff, but they do have the opportunity to have... When they have parent groups and PTOs, they could have those in the evening. There is no reason... I don't think there's any law that says, "Oh, we have to meet in the school by 3:00 and that's that."

My son is currently going to Head Start right now, and they're trying this huge fatherhood initiative, which is a wonderful thing. I hope it works for them. However, their first meeting was last Tuesday at 8:30 in the morning. Now, most people are working. We want our families to be working. We need our families to work so that they can support their kids-

Jessica Webster:

We do. Yeah, that's right.

Melissa Hassler:

And they're picking to have a meeting at 8:30 in the morning. My husband, who would love to be part of that, will never be able to participate because he has a sometimes 60-hour a week job, depending... He works in the construction field. Today, he's in Philadelphia. I have no clue when he'll walk in our door because he's got to finish the job before he can come home. You can't leave someone's roof off of their house for the next day. And I said that to the family engagement worker who's in charge of that, who actually is a guy. And I said, "My husband's disappointed. He would love to do this." And if they're going to set it, say the third Wednesday at 6:00 PM, I'm sure most of the dads could maybe block that time out. But to be a random Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday at 8:30 in the morning? They're not going to be able to come. And it was sad to hear, I think only two fathers ended up showing up to this meeting out of a program that has 647 kids.

So it's sad. They're not meeting their families at all where they need to be met at and-

Jessica Webster:

I always say it's extra work too, right? Because designing all this work and then it doesn't have the impact that you're hoping it has if we're not meeting families where they are.

Melissa Hassler:

You got it.

Jessica Webster:

It's extra work, but doesn't lead to great results, I think.

Melissa Hassler:

Yeah. And just like our program too, we do group connections and we do them every month. And we spend a lot of time on them. We spend a lot of money on them too. But some of my co-workers, they're so set in, "Oh, I got to be done at 4:00. So our group connections only can be till 4:00." And that's how it's got to be. Like I said, I have a three-year-old. My husband, I don't ever know when he's going to be home. But it's once a month. We know that it's usually the third Thursday of the month. I know that I have to find care for Daniel till potentially 6:00, 7:00 that night. Sometimes that means me going to get Daniel at school and bringing him back to group connections with me-

Jessica Webster:

To group connections. Yeah.

Melissa Hassler:

Because I don't have anything. And I try not to say too much because I'm one of the newest staff members there, but we would get more clients to come if we offered it after 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. We have this big Christmas one coming up and our supervisors set this one up for us. They picked the day, but it's over at 4:00. You have to come between 10:00 and 4:00. Well, my clients that work will never be able to come between 10:00 and 4:00.

Jessica Webster:

They won't be able to participate. Yeah.

Melissa Hassler:

So they miss out on this wonderful Christmas program because they don't offer it till later in the evening. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica Webster:

That's a really great point.

Karen Shanoski:

Well, these friends speak for me.

Lauren Waite:

Sometimes-

Karen Shanoski:

No, go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Waite:

I was just going to say, sometimes communicating and learning what the barriers are and when people are available can remove some of that trouble. And that's something that we try to do in our programs. We try to suss out when our people can come. Hopefully the schools are doing that too. It's beneficial. And if we can team up together and make the team bigger, sometimes we can provide more opportunities in various times.

Jessica Webster:

It's great point.

Karen Shanoski:

I think they each said something that I thought was really important about relationships, about strengths, and about meeting people where they are. And I think the thing that I think about a lot is respect. And it's one thing to say I respect the parents who come to my school. It's another to actually expect them to be the best parent for their children and really take that mindset of that might not be the way I rear my children, but that parent is doing what's working for their family. And I think if school folks could be that open and demonstrate respect in that way, that they expect the best, that could be really helpful.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah. I agree with you, Karen. We're all doing the best we can with what we have, right?

Karen Shanoski:

Yeah.

Jessica Webster:

I just think ultimately that's the truth.

Nikevia Thomas:

We all need to meet each other where we are.

Jessica Webster:

I love that. That's our new mantra. We have a new one. We're good with that. Oh, thank you so much for joining us today, everyone. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to share with us the wonderful work that you're doing for our families. Yeah, thank you so much.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes.

Karen Shanoski:

Thank you for listening to us.

Lauren Waite:

Thank you for having us.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Lauren Waite:

Yeah. And for giving this a voice. Exciting to be here.

Jessica Webster:

Well, we're lucky to, at CAFE, be able to partner with PAT and help continue that work. So it's been wonderful to have that partnership with you all and we appreciate the work that you do so much for our families and family engagement in general. And to our listeners, thank you so much for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don't forget to follow us on X @CAFE_MAEC.